Posts by drew sagan

29

Mormon vs JW experience

by thraxer68 in

i was browsing some ex-mormon forums and i noticed that many of the experiences sound similar.

people spoke about brain washing, viewing outsiders as being ignorant of the truth, im not sure if im allowed to copy and paste from other forums, if im not please let me know but here are a couple quotes from ex mormon forums:.

"something i very strongly believe, is that even though everything has crumbled to the ground for me right now, i wouldn't change the fact that i left the church for anything.

drew sagan

Exclusionary religions share many of the same characteristics. I think this goes hand in hand with the claims of restorationism, which argue that a "restored" and "pure" christianity has been organized in the modern era.

These religions tend to have more intense experiences because they are more direct in their beliefs. They see the world in terms of "spiritual battle", us vs. them, the chosen vs. the dammed.

As such, people who leave these kinds of groups are more likely to talk about how miserable they were under all the pressures and problems that come with those beliefs.

Keep in mind that both the Mormons and JWs developed at the same time in American history, and share many of the same "restorationist" values.

30

So, you blew your chance to go to college because of JWs? Don't give up!

by cabasilas in

i got the jw "bug" as a teenager.

witnesses called at our door when i was nearly 11. my parents are deaf and i was the oldest hearing child, the default interpreter for them in that era before relay services and professional interpreters.

they had no interest in jws, but it started to spark an interest in me.

drew sagan

Couldn't agree more. I just finished a Bachelor's degree this past April. Diploma finally came in the mail yesterday.

I was lucky being that I'm only 27 years old right now. While I did put off school for about six or seven years (03-09), that is nowhere near as long as some have. Regardless, if you want to do it people should know that there are options out there. Just start looking. A great thing for me was community college transfer credits. Over half of my credits came from a community college, which is drastically cheaper than the state college I attended for the final 60 credits.

14

Jerusalem in Bible TimesWhat Does Archaeology Reveal?

by TD in

that was the title of an article appearing in the watchtower of june 15th 1997. on page 12, this article stated:.

"visitors can see remains from this destruction that took place over 2,500 years ago.

the israelite tower, the burnt room, and the bullae house are names of popular archaeological sites preserved and open to the public.

drew sagan

Another case of "proof by association" I suppose.

Really like the wording on this one:

"Bible’s picture of Jerusalem from David’s time down to its destruction in 607 B.C.E. has in many ways been verified"

So they are actaully claiming this verifies a "picture of Jerusalem," not 607.

During the entire time I was a JW I never once took notice that the 607 date was contested. Sure, it may have been mentioned at a meeting at some point, but the information was just rushed over like everything else. 607 was simply an accepted fact by all parties involved. Finding out that the date was contested served as a huge blow to my confidence in the Watchtower because I always believed their facts were backed up from outside sources.

87

Official: Ted Jaracz's Funeral Brochure

by yknot in

jw
friends

i received this generous offering from 'anonymous brother'.

his comments : hmmm...why do i not see such things at most jw funerals?.

please give your 'thank you' to "anonymous brother'.

drew sagan

Soldier it kind of depends on the brother doing the talk. For my grandma's funeral, my aunts and mom talked to him and gave lots of details about the person my grandma was, and it was a very personal talk. This brother I have known for 20 years, and I remember he used to give some very "different" talks in the TMS, he has always been an "outside the box" kind of guy.

That tended to be my experience as well. Some talks were put together well, some were awful. Usually depended on the speaker's style.

65

Governing Body 2.0

by drew sagan in

i borrow the phrase gb 2.0 from alltimejeff, who used it yesterday in the post about theodore jaracz's death.. i was interested in starting a thread that addresses the new leadership regime that has emerged within the wts, especially in light of changes (albeit mundane) the organization has undertaken over the past 15 years or so.

while few of us have had close contact with the men in charge, changes they have made in recent years surly reflect a definable leadership style.

it also reveals a little bit about how they view the organization and its future.. from what i can put together, it seems that there a few obvious things to note.. - 1999 seems to be the sea change year in terms of gb appointment and might be seen sybolically as a turning point in terms of leadership for the group.

drew sagan

neverendingjourney,

I believe some of what you are saying comes from what the Witnesses actually do provide for people. I believe that Andrew Holden's argument (2002) is probably the best around. Essentially, the witnesses provide an escape from modernity. However, unlike other religious orders and movements that do this in extreme ways, such as engaging in complete physical and social isolation, the witnesses have found other mechanisms with which to maintain the balance between worldly engagement and exclusion.

This of course leads to contradictions. They fully embrace technology for the sake of their printing work, but openly condemn other aspects of modern science as a tool of the devil. There are other examples that could be added. My main feeling is that the Watchtower has developed a system where people can have their cake and eat it too. They can live in the modern world and enjoy all its benefits and at the same time enjoy being apart of an exclusive god ordained organization. JWs really are one of the few groups that provide this type of experience.

In essence, the appeal the Watchtower Society to some may be derived from the fact that they are not fully integrated into society. In this way the Watchtower is fulfilling a particular need for people who want to enjoy modernity, but with caveat.

87

Official: Ted Jaracz's Funeral Brochure

by yknot in

jw
friends

i received this generous offering from 'anonymous brother'.

his comments : hmmm...why do i not see such things at most jw funerals?.

please give your 'thank you' to "anonymous brother'.

drew sagan

Neat! Thanks for sharing.

87

Official: Ted Jaracz's Funeral Brochure

by yknot in

jw
friends

i received this generous offering from 'anonymous brother'.

his comments : hmmm...why do i not see such things at most jw funerals?.

please give your 'thank you' to "anonymous brother'.

drew sagan

Neat! Thanks for sharing.

65

Governing Body 2.0

by drew sagan in

i borrow the phrase gb 2.0 from alltimejeff, who used it yesterday in the post about theodore jaracz's death.. i was interested in starting a thread that addresses the new leadership regime that has emerged within the wts, especially in light of changes (albeit mundane) the organization has undertaken over the past 15 years or so.

while few of us have had close contact with the men in charge, changes they have made in recent years surly reflect a definable leadership style.

it also reveals a little bit about how they view the organization and its future.. from what i can put together, it seems that there a few obvious things to note.. - 1999 seems to be the sea change year in terms of gb appointment and might be seen sybolically as a turning point in terms of leadership for the group.

drew sagan

Good comments everyone.

Something I would like to add. I think that some may be confusing what constitutes a religion going "mainstream".

During the Rutherford era the organization was confrontational and hostile with society. Open protests on street corners and heated rhetoric against people (by name!). Read the article Armageddon, Inc. that appeared in the Satruday Evening Post in 1940, that should give you an idea of this.

Eventually the hostile elements faded somewhat, and Witnesses became more integrated with the society they inhabit. Sure, they are insular, but not completely. They do not live in compounds (at least not all of them!).

Going "mainstream" imo should not be put within a black/white framework, where all changes are seen as either positive or negative. The organization and its members are far more apart of "this world" then they want to believe. While elements of the movement deny personal freedom and as some argue create personal injury, this doesn't detract from the fact that the group is loosing its exclusionary nature. In fact, the ever diminishing role of prophetic significance has probably assisted in this regard.

In recent years I have tended to back away from some of the more intense rhetoric regarding "cults". That the social environment created by the JWs is intense and limits personal freedoms is without question. This in turn can create negative consequences for individuals. However, far too many people attach the label of cult to something that the do not like, a factor that diminishes the usefulness of the term. Even worse, I believe former members of religious movements sometimes use anti-cult rhetoric to the extreme, using it as an excuse to justify their previous way of life. The argument that "I had no control, my mind was being controlled" just doesn't cut it for me.

89

OMFG!!!!!!!!

by Blue Grass in

jw
friends

i have just seen the hottest girl ever on facebook and turns out she's a jw.

i swear i'm so close to make a temporary return just to have a chance with this girl.

due to privacy i won't link her picture, but all i can cay is ddddaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

drew sagan

Seems like a pretty foolproof plan to me.

65

Governing Body 2.0

by drew sagan in

i borrow the phrase gb 2.0 from alltimejeff, who used it yesterday in the post about theodore jaracz's death.. i was interested in starting a thread that addresses the new leadership regime that has emerged within the wts, especially in light of changes (albeit mundane) the organization has undertaken over the past 15 years or so.

while few of us have had close contact with the men in charge, changes they have made in recent years surly reflect a definable leadership style.

it also reveals a little bit about how they view the organization and its future.. from what i can put together, it seems that there a few obvious things to note.. - 1999 seems to be the sea change year in terms of gb appointment and might be seen sybolically as a turning point in terms of leadership for the group.

drew sagan

Hi TD!

"The closest I have seen anyone else following this pattern in recent years was Greg Stafford and his case is not exactly like this in every detail. Greg's forte is ancient Greek and he was (And is) very capable. Soon afterwards, the JW leadership began discouraging study of the Biblical source languages, which is not only a break with the past, but a very, very odd position for any Christian religion to take as well."

Fwiw, I tend to see the writings and actions of Greg Stafford as one of the more interesting WTS related developments in recent years. I believe he serves as an example of how Jehovah’s Witness beliefs are breaking into two separate branches.

WTS publications familiar to the older generation of JWs (60s & 70s) used to carry a strong narrative that revolved around Jehovah’s “theocratic order.” This narrative was interlinked with concepts regarding the nature of God and his works such as substance (anti-trinitarian arguments), that role of Jesus (a creature), eternal rewards and punishment (destruction, paradise and heaven), etc.

Greg Stafford represents (at least to me) a growing tendency within the organization in recent years (90s and 00s) that emphasizes doctrinal debates with orthodox Christianity over all other things. He sees the “theocratic order” narrative as no longer important, and instead argues that it is a distraction from the “real work” that needs to be done. He also has words to say about the organization's outdated beliefs regarding blood and other issues. At the same time he embraces a great deal of the organization's theology, most notably its concepts of Jehovah.

What is ironic in my opinion is that GB 2.0 seems to be shifting in this direction as well. As some have noted on this board, the newly revised songbook wipes out the (now dated) “theocratic” language. Updates to Organized to do Jehovah’s Will and Theocratic Ministry School Book reflect a desire to move away from the stronger and more direct model of Jehovah's Theocratic Government™. Changes in the overall content of the books and magazines, as discussed already, also reveals this trend.

From my own personal experience I noticed that most JWs tended to see the “theocratic” teachings as old, mysterious, complex and “deep”. My arguments with the Elders during my exit almost exclusively focused on doctrinal questions. When I criticized apocalyptic speculation and prophecy there actually was some acknowledgement on their part that “that side” of the faith wasn’t as important. Privately one Elder even told me that he found some of the end times rhetoric (specifically about earthquakes) to be a bit over the top.

The conclusion is that people within the org will proclaim that the prophetic and theocratic aspect of the faith is important only when push comes to shove. Otherwise they rather not get into it.

"From what I can see, the 12 year old bespectacled, gifted JW child whose entire bedroom wall is covered with an intricate chronological and prophetic timeline compiled from a mountain of JW literature is a thing of the past."

Quit reminding me of my youth!

“I would like to special order the Kingdom Interlinear brother literature servant.”

“What for?”

"To feel smart…"

ATJ: The label of GB 2.0 has officially stuck. Congrats on creating a new official phrase in the world of ex-jw speak

JWFacts: Good points. I remember finding that article from 2007 especially interesting since it came out shortly after me and my wife left. I sometimes wonder what I would have though about it during my years as an active witness.